Purgatory: Questions Regarding Anglicanism and Roman Catholicism.

Yes, my blog friends, it’s time for a new topic in my new blog series. Our discussions on Mary have been thought-provoking and I hope you’ve found them helpful in some way.

So, what about Purgatory? The subject of purgatory has been a much debated one. Perhaps, it would be appropriate to begin with a couple of sources.

In The Book of Common Prayer, in Article 22 of The 39 Articles, we find:

The Romish Doctrine concerning Purgatory, Pardons, Worshipping and Adoration, as well of Images as of Relics, and also Invocation of Saints, is a fond thing, vainly invented, and grounded upon no warranty of Scripture, but rather repugnant to the Word of God.

Obviously, it would seem that Anglicans tend to have a different view of purgatory than Roman Catholics.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church, we find the following:

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.

So, I guess the question is this: do you believe that "after death they [Christians] undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven?"

Comments

[Chris Kan]

I don't think about the idea of pugatory much. I can't help thinking that much of it, like the familiar concept of "hell" is conditioned by some medieval fantasy thinking (thankyou Mr Dante). I sort of prefer the C S Lewis image of God/Aslan looking us right in the face and knowing us completely and loving us nonetheless. Good Goats by the Linn's has plenty of great teaching about escatology if you are keen.
Peace.

[Bryan Sherwood]

Thanks Chris for stopping by and commenting. C.S. Lewis certainly has a lot to say about purgatory. I ran across this quote after reading your comment.

Our souls demand Purgatory, don't they? Would it not break the heart if God said to us, 'It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into the joy'? Should we not reply, 'With submission, sir, and if there is no objection, I'd rather be cleaned first.' 'It may hurt, you know' - 'Even so, sir.'

I assume that the process of purification will normally involve suffering. Partly from tradition; partly because most real good that has been done me in this life has involved it. But I don't think the suffering is the purpose of the purgation. I can well believe that people neither much worse nor much better than I will suffer less than I or more. . . . The treatment given will be the one required, whether it hurts little or much.

C.S. Lewis gives one a lot to think about however, my initial response to purgatory is to dismiss the idea. After all, Scripture seems to allude to the idea of being with Christ immediately after death. The classic example that comes to mind is the thief on the cross. If anyone deserved purgatory, it would be this thief. Yet, Jesus assures him that he will be with him in paradise and it won't be in a few days or weeks but today. (HT: NT Wright).

Other thoughts?

[Peter]

My understanding is that the official Anglican formularies do not accept the medieval (pre-Trent) doctrine of purgatory. Actually, Anglicans in general do not believe in "purgatory." (Quotoations intentional)

However -- and this is a huge however -- Anglicans believe in the intermediate state. Much like the Orthodox, Anglicans believe that whatever happens on the other side of the grave it is not the fullness of salvation. Additionally, there is no reason to conclude definitively that there is no possible growth in grace for those who die in Christ. Hence, Anglicans have continued to intercede for the dead in Christ since the first BCP was written in 1549 -- in the same that worshippers of the undividied catholic church offered prayers for the dead.

What Anglicanism rejects is the notion of saying masses for the dead, buying indulgences, etc. I think also Anglicanism rejects the notion of purgatory being the completion of temporal punishment that never quite got done on earth. Growth in grace does not necessarily mean "temporal punishment" or even purgation. But it can mean being duly prepared to face the judgment (what ever that means.)

The saints pray for us, we pray for them and we all await the resurrection of the dead -- that is our salvation.

After writing all that, i think an Anglican can hold to the Anglican formularies in a robust manner and hold to a kind of doctrine of purgatory/intermediate state.

I gotta make these replies shorter!

[Brandon]

I like Fr. Peter's view on purgatory. I've always been inquisitive on finding out exactly what Anglican doctrine regarding the immediate state of the soul after death and in the past, I've never been able to find any such detail. Given that Methodists historically are related to Anglicans (after all, Fr. John Wesley was still an Anglican priest), I've always been taught that there was an intermediate state after death that is not quite being with Christ as the thief was but not quite fully "purgatory" as is defined by the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Fr. Peter's explanation has solidified what my grandfather told me all those years ago but I never could quite clarify with him about before he passed away three years ago.

[Bryan Sherwood]

What Anglicanism rejects is the notion of saying masses for the dead, buying indulgences, etc. I think also Anglicanism rejects the notion of purgatory being the completion of temporal punishment that never quite got done on earth. Growth in grace does not necessarily mean "temporal punishment" or even purgation. But it can mean being duly prepared to face the judgment (what ever that means.)

Thanks Peter. Good thoughts there on Anglicanism and Purgatory. Perhaps that helps clarify some things--the differences between purgation and the intermediate state. I think those two things get a little muddled up in my mind.

Peace.

[+ Alan]

I'm gettin' in later on this one. I remember blogging about this a while back. The concept of purgatory is something I actually never totally got away from even when I was on my retreat as a "protestant" for a few years. My own understanding of the doctrine was probably more formed in the last few years than it was before.

One of the things that seems apparent about this purgatory idea, to me, is that even the Catholic doctrine is not that tightly defined. It's such a metaphysical thing, like heaven, that it's hard to talk about with any great clarity. So there are probably a few ways one can look at it and one be as close to the others to nailing the thing down. "Nailing it down" - yeah, I don't think that's really going to happen in the way we'd probably like. Not a lot on that side of the divide will be, to us, here and now anyway.

So, terms like "temporal punnishement" are a bit sketchy. I mean it is what it is but what does that mean? It's trying to describe something that's a little complicated underneath. I like the mystical language here, the more monastic language. Borrowing a little from the East, too, wouldn't hurt. Not that the Orthodox talk about "purgatory" per se, but they do talk about transformation.

They way I talk about purgatory very much follows how I think and talk about salvation as a whole. Salvation is about our total transformation into New Beings, into fully Human Beings. It's about the total restoration of God's originally intended creation, with us at it's apex. He promised that He wouldn't stop working on us until the job was finished (I'm paraphrasing). So if we die, physically, even though we are in Christ by virtue of His Life (sanctifying Grace) living in us, we may not yet be holistically transformed into His Image. What then? Well, the logical conclusion of the way I'm looking at what Salvation is - the job gets finished.

Purgatory is not about punishment, it's about purification. It's about transformation, sanctification, if you will. And again, it's not a "place" - it's state, which is vague, I know. How technical can you be about something like that? I find it helpful to envision purgatory as the entrance hallway of Heaven. So, it's part of Heaven. You can look at it that way. Depending upon how transformed you are on entering, you enter farther down the hallway toward the "living room." Are you in the house? Yes. Maybe you just need to wipe your feet and hang your coat and hat up before you're ready to go sit at the feet of the King in His Throne Room.

I've also likened it to a remedial class room. "Heaven 095," as it were. Or perhaps its like a NICU (ICU for infants - when they're in that little chamber thing) - we're in there because our "heavenly lungs" haven't fully developed. We're just not able to breath right out there (in there) yet. There are a lot of ways one might be able to talk about purgatory. All of them are limited in some way. Hopefully any of this has been helpful in some way Bryan. Peace.

[Chris Kan]

Thanks for that quote Brian. Seems CS had a more developed ideas than I knew of. Seems I have some more thinking and reading to do.

[Brandon]

So Alan, to use another metaphor/analogy, "purgatory" is sort of like a lobby in a grand hotel. Before we go and collect our keys to the rooms that have been pre-booked for us, we need to register and check-in while also making sure that we aren't carrying any nasties into the room? Sort of like going through security at the airport before we can get onto our plane to fly to a destination?

Flawed as that metaphor/analogy may be, am I on the right track?

Pax,
Brandon

[Peter]

Where I would tweak what alan says is that "purgatory" is not about getting ready for heaven but is about getting ready for the resurrection and the new creation.

Alan -- I like your thoughts, but isn't temporal punishment still official Roman language for part of the purpose of purgatory?

Oh, I think another difference in the Anglican (and I think Orthodox) view from Rome is that everyone is in the intermediate state until the resurrection. Actually, I probably shouldn't say "the" Anglican view because I am not sure there is one single view. But at least a common and traditional view among Anglicans is that all are in the intermediate state.

Of course -- how much do we really know?

[Bryan Sherwood]

Dang it, why can't things be more black and white? I tend to like things that way. :-)

Interesting thoughts. Is purgatory about purification or punishment? Maybe a mix of both? It's seem pretty unclear as to what the "next stage" looks like after death. Can anyone comment on what the Orthodox believe regarding purgatory?

Peter, how do you know what Anglicans believe, in general? Beyond the the Articles of Religion and the Prayer Book, what do you turn to? Sometimes I feel a little frustrated not having a formal catechism. Then again, I appreciate the idea that we don't have to agree on every jot and tittle.

[+ Alan]

Well Brandon, I'm not sure. You seem to be pointing to the flawed nature of the analogy, and any part of it that is flawed is on us, not what might be true of the thing, so I'm not sure if that's the right track really. I was throwing out analogies there.

We can certainly go too far in that direction. I don't think it's about what "nasties" we might bring into some heavenly "grand ballroom" - Heaven, or God in all His Self-sufficient fullness can handle it. The thing is - we can't. Getting into Peter's response there - even if the term "temporal punnishment due to sin" IS "official" Roman language, we have to then understand what that term means. It's the same term used when the Catholic Church talks about the case of someone who goes to confession, receives the forgiveness and Grace of God, but "still" there may be some "temporal punnishement due to sin" that will have to happen. I just think it's an unfortunate term for Protestants. I'm not sure it's referring to any direct punnishment doled out by God, like Him "taking it out of our hides" kind of thing. I believe this language is talking about something more like "natural consequences as a result of sin." You might want to think about what kind of damage is done to our inner persons, too, as a result of our sin - even though we have been forgiven. Again, if we only think about this thing in terms of "getting into Heaven" we're handicapped from the get-go. Catholics even do this too much I think. It's more about fixing the damage than being punished for wrongdoing. In fact, I don't think it's about the latter at all. Language inside Catholicism is often used, talking about our having our final attachments to sin removed in purgatory - about any "concupiscence" being finally "burned away" in the "fire" of God's Love and Transforming Grace.

Why doesn't He just BAM!, do it all at once? Because in the Catholic understanding, our wills are still at work. Even though we are among the Elect, we still may not fully and completely will the Will of God. It hurts here to have our wills molded, and it will "hurt" there too I imagine.

And back to the "official language" thing - like I said, even though the Church has an official line on it, it's not a very long line and the concept remains fairly theologically vague. So the black and white Bryan loves is not so much to be had, even in the Catholic Church - not about that anyway. OK, another loooong post - Peace.

[Peter]

"Peter, how do you know what Anglicans believe, in general? Beyond the the Articles of Religion and the Prayer Book, what do you turn to? Sometimes I feel a little frustrated not having a formal catechism. Then again, I appreciate the idea that we don't have to agree on every jot and tittle."

Good question. The more developed ideas on the intermediate state are not official Anglican doctrine in the sense that they are written in the formularies (Articles, BCP, Ordinal). OTOH -- the prayers for the dead that have been in the liturgies from the beginning connote at least a recognition of the communion between the faithful and the blessed dead which is a very different posture than the typical North Anerican puritan or pietist has.

There are a number of catechisms and commentaries on the BCP. The Prayer Book Society - www.episcopalian.org/pbs1928/ is a good starting place. They have a couple online under the articles section.

The catechism in the back of the 1979 BCP is worthless regarding classical Anglican doctrine.

[tiber jumper]

Purgatory was a difficult concept for me to accept on returning to the Church after 31 yrs as an evangelical.
The more I started thinking about it, it began to make sense to me. It's not a second chance, but an ante-chamber to the great throne room so to speak and as Lewis so aptly says, a place to get cleaned up. Most of us will die with the temporal consequences of sin still "on us" and some type of preparatory purification makes sense to me now. Paul talked about Onesiphorus and the need to pray for him that God would have mercy on him on that day, implying he was already dead.
This is one of the areas that I just needed to say, I accept the authority of the Church and if they tell me purgatory exists, I will accept it. Took a while to come to that place after being an independent evangelo-charismatic for most my life. I appreciate the thoughts on your blog.

[Bryan Sherwood]

Thanks Peter for the link. Looks like good info. there.

And thanks Tiber Jumper for stopping by and commenting. I think you understand by angst as it comes to embracing purgatory.

Peace.

[Brandon]

Alan, good points there. At times we in the Western side of the church have tended to view sin and the consequences of it (which include purgatory) in more of a legalistic framework rather than for what it really is; an aberration of the original nature that God bestowed upon us after he finished creating humans and all of creation, that is "being good" (from what I remember in the first few chapters of Genesis). Sort of what you are talking about when you refer to the "damage caused to our inner persons".
Having said that, the legalistic aspect of the Western church's approach to sin is just one part of this aberration in my mind. And your post, while long, is one helluva good way of explaining it. So all I'll say is thank you! =)

Pax.

[Peter]

Oh Alan, you're such a, a, a, a, -- hrrrumph -- papist!!

(tee hee alert)

[Brandon]

I still like the catechism that is in my copy of the English BCP that was bequeathed to me by my grandfather.

As for Fr. Peter's statement:
"The more developed ideas on the intermediate state are not official Anglican doctrine in the sense that they are written in the formularies (Articles, BCP, Ordinal). OTOH -- the prayers for the dead that have been in the liturgies from the beginning connote at least a recognition of the communion between the faithful and the blessed dead which is a very different posture than the typical North Anerican puritan or pietist has."

Amen to that!

[+ Alan]

It's a Papists life for meeeee
a Papists life for meeee
I love the Pope
and he's no dope
It's a Papists life foe meeee!

haaaa! :)